Finding Your Purpose: The Power of Inner Work & Breaking Free from Societal Norms with Dr. Margie Serrato

In this episode of Life Intended, host Kelly Berry welcomes Dr. Margie Serrato, an accomplished social justice advocate, cultural anthropologist, and coach. Dr. Margie shares her own journey of self-discovery and the importance of giving oneself permission to do what feels right. She emphasizes the need to get out of our heads and connect with our inner truth, which often gets suppressed by societal expectations.

Margie also discusses the process of uncovering one's purpose and the role of a coach in guiding individuals to find their own answers. Working on yourself and making positive changes can have a ripple effect on others, inspiring them to make changes as well. However, it's important to recognize that not everyone will be open to change, and it's not our responsibility to change them. We can only show up with love and compassion. Making personal changes is a continuous practice that requires effort and patience, but it can lead to a more intentional and purposeful life.

Key Takeaways:

• Giving yourself permission to do what feels right is essential for personal growth and living authentically.
• Getting out of our heads and connecting with our inner truth is crucial for uncovering our purpose.
• We are all products of cultural conditioning, and it takes work to break free from societal expectations.
• A good coach helps individuals find their own answers and build self-awareness.
• It's never too late to start living in alignment with our purpose. Working on yourself can inspire others to make positive changes.
• Not everyone will be open to change, and it's not our responsibility to change them.
• Making personal changes is a continuous practice that requires effort and patience.
• Personal growth can lead to deeper relationships and a more intentional life.

Connect with Dr. Margie Serrato:

• Follow Dr. Margie on Instagram
• Connect with Dr. Margie on LinkedIn
• Learn more about the work Dr. Margie does and how to work with her on her website www.human-empowered.com

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More About Kelly Berry

Kelly is a Coach, holds an MBA and is the VP of Operations at Fitness Revolution. She has a rich background in strategic planning and business management is a devoted community volunteer and an avid adventurer. Kelly believes in living life to the fullest—whether it’s running an ultramarathon, running her businesses, or spending quality time with her husband Nick Berry and daughter Vivienne. Her life is a testament to the power of resilience and intention.

Life Intended is published in partnership with FCG.

Transcript

Kelly Berry (00:00) Hi friends and welcome back to Life Intended. I'm your host, Kelly Berry. Life Intended is a podcast that explores what it means to be true to yourself and live an authentic and purposeful life. Each episode explores my guest's version of personal growth, self-discovery, and the pursuit of becoming the best version of themselves, as well as how to find the joy in the journey. On today's episode, I have Margie Serrato. For 25-plus years, her academic background and professional experiences have been related to social justice, ethics, understanding human complexity, and honoring the myriad ways in which the human experience can unfold in individuals and collectives. She earned her bachelor's degree in psychology from the University of Central Florida and her doctor of philosophy in cultural anthropology from Texas A&M. Margie's mission as a coach and speaker is to challenge and support humans who want to break free from social and business conventions to live and lead boldly on their own. In doing so, her clients realize their dare to step into their power and design meaningful and intentional experiences that stem from their life purpose and create impact in all areas of their lives. Margie is in her happy place when she is traveling, engaging in new experiences, generating energy in others, collaborating on big visions, expressing her artistic talents, and snuggling with her two little ones. Welcome to the podcast today, Margie. It's so great to have you!

Dr. Margie (01:32) Thank you so much, Kelly, for having me, for inviting me into your space and with your listeners. It's such an honor for me to be able to share a little bit of my story and my wisdom with others, and I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do that with you.

Kelly Berry (01:50) Well, you're welcome. I'm happy to have you. I can't wait to have this discussion and share it because I think there's so much value in what you uniqueness in your background, I think, that lends some, you know, just a different spin or a different flavor on how you work with people and, you know, how you really help people find their purpose, live their purpose, and live a better life. And truly, that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast is help people see different ways to do that and learn from experts like you. So thank you.

Dr. Margie (02:24) Absolutely. And you know what, one of the interesting things as I was listening to you, it's always really interesting to hear what others take away about who you are as a person, right? So we'll just start the discussion from there. I hear that when somebody else is reading it and it's really interesting because there's a little bit of disassociation. Honestly, it's like, man, that sounds so cool. Like I want to know her.

Kelly Berry (02:44) Thank you.

Dr. Margie (02:50) But when you are yourself and you are so bogged down by all of the mental junk that happens in there, it's sometimes really hard to even recognize that that is you. And it's a little bit of a challenge because you get to a point, and this is something that I learned from myself, like I hear that, man, I've done so many great things with my life. I'm so educated. I've attained so many achievements. I've gone to so many different places in the world. I've tried so many things. And personally, I will say it is awesome from the standpoint of I've had the privilege of being able to go many places and do the things that have mattered to me. What we never hear and see is what it takes for a person to get there, right? It sounds like such a cakewalk, like, wow, she's so experienced or, you know, let's say talented or achieved or whatever. But behind all of that is a lot of inner work. Sure, there's studying, sure there's research, sure there's a lot of other things, but it's really, I feel like the theme behind the scenes in all of the different things that I've done is giving myself permission to do what feels right for me. And that, I feel, is a thing that's rare because we're often so tied to all of the expectations that have been set for us either by society, by our family, by our peers, by our teachers, the people that we look up to. And often we are so engaged in wanting to prove ourselves worthy or to prove them right or to meet their expectations, to make them proud. It's always about somebody else. It is actually a very different and difficult perspective to go at it from the standpoint of what is it that my soul wants? What is my own purpose? And especially when what everybody else is telling you is the opposite of what feels right for you. That's where the work is. That's where the work, and where, like I'm thinking about this right now, I'm like, man, there's so much about the kind of research that I did, the field that I went into to do my research, the major that I chose because let's face it, most of us learn, right, what are the successful careers? You think about like undergraduates and you survey why they're even at school. Like if they don't have a clear vision, it's to be a physician, to be an engineer, to be a teacher, to be a lawyer. The things that in our society we've learned to accept as being successful and well-paid or stable. Right. So like, if you think of teacher, not well paid, unfortunately, and that's a whole podcast episode, the sense of at least we have some understanding that it's valuable. And then you always need teachers. You need teachers everywhere, right? Just like you need physicians everywhere. It doesn't matter what happens in the world, you're going to need those people.

Dr. Margie (06:20) And I chose a field that nobody knows about. A field that people even in the field will tell you, you're not here to make any money, honey. Like, you know, like I remember that one of the first anthropology courses that I took and the professor's name is Dr. Jones. He's like, you know, eager first day. It was like a peoples and cultures of the world class. And he goes, how many of you are here to be anthropologists and you know, like these eager undergraduate hands are like, yeah, me, me, me. And I bet that you're here because you want to do something good in the world. And we're like, you know, our little hearts are just like, you know, like warm and expanding and like, yeah, that's why I'm here, right? And he's like, well, when you're done with this degree, you might as well wipe your ass with it. You will not be able to do anything with this degree unless you have a graduate degree.

Dr. Margie (07:13) And honestly, we all sat there, wow, like that excitement that he built up, it was completely, completely messed up. But he gave us a real truth then, right? Which is in our field, at least, that's not to say that the things that you learn in anthropology, even as an undergrad, you can't use them in myriad ways.

Dr. Margie (07:35) But if you want to be an anthropologist and be doing research in this field, unfortunately, you can't, your chances are much better with a graduate degree. And I appreciated that truth, right? I had no idea. I hadn't even considered at that stage because I'd just started undergrad. I hadn't even considered that graduate school was something that I wanted to do or had to do. And so to then continue in this field that people are telling you like, you're never gonna make any money. Nobody hires anthropologists. Universities continue to cut out liberal arts programs and all that stuff. So like you're fighting against the current. And the thing that I always felt like asking myself was, Does this still feel like the place where you meant to do the good in the world that you meant to do? And that answer was always yes. Now, even after I left academia, there was a little bit of an identity crisis because there was a sense of, but if I leave academia and I went to school to do all this stuff and to do research and to teach in universities, what does that mean for me? Does that mean I'm not an anthropologist anymore? Does that mean, can I call myself an academic after that point? And there were a lot of things that I inadvertently latched on to from what my faculty was telling me. Like the people who are training you and telling you like, no, this is the path that you have to take if you want to be like a respected and successful anthropologist. And I latched on to that unknowingly. And during that identity crisis, because academia was just not the place for me. It's very competitive. Universities are more like a business now and I didn't want to be a part of that. I wanted to teach. I wanted to share my knowledge and I wanted to help others to grow. And so as I realized this is not the place where I'm going to do that, there's a little bit of, again, like the identity struggle. But I realized, and it took a little bit of time, but I realized, you know, what I learned, I can still take with me wherever I go. What I learned and how I apply it is very unique to me because I'm a unique human being. And that matters. And that I can take into the future no matter what I do. The question is, well, how am I going to do that now? That's a completely different question. Going into entrepreneurship was a completely different type of learning. And I know that you as an entrepreneur also have your own learnings in that, right? Especially as women. Women are not taught to be entrepreneurs. That seems to be something that we're culturally conditioned. It's like men do that, right? There's risk associated with it. Women don't take risks. That is not part of the model that we learn. We learn to be financially responsible, to stable financially, right? And to be stable in a lot of other ways. And that messes with you with something like entrepreneurship where you have to take risks on yourself. You have to give yourself permission. Nobody else is going to tell you how to do this the way that you're meant to. There are lots of experts who will tell you how to do marketing, how to do your business strategy, how to create a business plan and those more tactical things. But who you are as a business owner is an extension of who you are as a person. And I never intended to be an entrepreneur. That was absolutely not in my life plan. My dad isn't an entrepreneur. He loves it. He loves this idea of being your own boss. And I always saw it as you're like, you never stop working. And that's now what I wanted for myself. It's like, you never turn that off. Can I just have like the eight to five, you know, and like I switch off after that because that's what we all learn to want. Right? And we also know that that's not very true, right? Anymore, maybe at some point in human history, that was the case. Like you finish your shift and you're done. Now there's more expectation for you to be always on for the company. But anyway, so all of that to say, there's so many different things that in my life were intended to be different, but the thing that...

Kelly Berry (11:43) Right.

Dr. Margie (12:06) For me, my own intention in many things was very clear, not in everything, but in many things it was very clear. And that's something that I feel like is very unique to me. But it was also the thing that helped me to guide others to be true to themselves. And so I feel like, you know, it's kind of cool, right? I had this own internal resource ever since I was little, but it was the gift that I received that then made a difference for who I was becoming and who I'm continuing to become. And that's pretty cool.

Kelly Berry (12:42) Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of things that you said in there that I kind of want to just briefly jump back and touch on, but I don't want to forget where I want to go next because I think that was a great segue. And that is, I'm going to say it out loud. So we circle back to it. That is like really figuring out what your purpose is, how you help other people do that. Because I think that, you know, that's something that I, I don't know a person who doesn't want to know what their purpose is, but it seems very abstract, like how do I do that, hard work. So I want to come back to that. But going all the way back to the introduction, I do think that sometimes it's important to hear other people's perception of you and how they see you against your own. You know, I think that we oftentimes downplay our achievements or, you know, we have every voice in our head telling us why we're not as good as somebody else and why we, you know, we're not as accomplished and we're not as experienced and, you know, all of those things. But really when have that mirror reflected back on you, what somebody else thinks about you, that's powerful. And I think a lot of us could really benefit in believing that more, you know, like hearing what other people think about us and actually stopping to believe that as the truth rather than the truth that, you know, air quotes, the truth that we tell ourselves. So I think that that's really interesting that that's what you said. And I think it's even more interesting as someone who works in this field is as accomplished that even someone like you can sit there and listen to it and still have all of those thoughts running in the background. But I think that, you know, I think it's a powerful exercise that a lot of coaches do help you work through like how are how do other people see you? And you can talk to those people about it. Why do you see me like that? Or I think that's just, it's a whole other tangent, but very, very powerful to stop and think about yourself as others see you.

Dr. Margie (14:53) And I will say that even as recently as like, I'm going to see where we're at 2024, as recently as two years ago, when I had that transition out of academia, and yes, I earned this degree, right? I'm a doctor, I'm a doctor of philosophy. I had this really part of the identity crisis, which is, well, does it matter for me to call myself that if I'm not an anthropologist and if I'm not doing anthropology actively or doing research in anthropology or being affiliated with the university? And I struggled with that because I was like, well, what does it matter now? And it really, you do, you end up achieving these great things, but then minimizing them so easily.

Dr. Margie (15:38) And I just, I was just, sometimes I would say Dr. Margie, sometimes I wasn't. And I'm just like, I'm just going to nod. Cause I don't know. I have mixed feelings about it. I have like all this angst about it. And it was a friend of mine. Her name was Lucretia. This is part of like, like the Cincinnati cause I was doing a lot of speaking engagements there. And whenever she would introduce me to people, she said, this is Dr. Margie Serrato. And I would cringe, honestly. I would cringe. I'm like, like, you know, like that's not necessary. She said, listen, you earn that degree. You worked hard for that degree. You were in school for how many years for that degree? You're still paying for that degree. Okay. And she's like, and on top of that, you are a woman, you are a Latina. There are not a lot of Latinas with PhDs. You are a role model. You are an example. You get to own that. Not just for yourself, but you get to own that for other Latinas, for other little Latino girls like you to see that they can reach that too. That they can have your background from being from a low socioeconomic background, being a first generation American, not having the financial resources and still being able to accomplish the highest level of education. And honestly, when she gave me that talk, I was like, okay, I'm just not gonna argue with her. She scares the crap out of me. But there was always that, there was also that because it felt, she was so, she just has such a strong energy and she was giving me a truth that I was not willing to swallow. That I just, it was uncomfortable to hear it, but it was also true. It was also a truth that I was like, I just, it was too easy to look at it from my own vantage point and go, but it was just me. I mean, I did. And you do, you go through this mental gymnastics of like going, well, I mean, how hard could it have really been? Like I did it. Right. And it's, it's such a, it's such a struggle to give yourself the acknowledgement that you deserve for what you've done. And I had to work on that. It's a practice. It's part of the inner work, right? To acknowledge the things that you have done, to acknowledge the impact that you have in the world, to acknowledge even the little, I think especially the small day-to-day wins that are so easy to overlook. Let me give you an example of something that I'm doing now.

Dr. Margie (18:25) That feels like so small, but I'm really practicing just acknowledging it and being okay with it. I started working out again this week. It's been a while. In the past few years, I've been on and off for different reasons, health reasons, relocation just now, and I started working out. I've gained a little bit of weight. It's not a lot, but in my head, it's a lot more than what it actually is. And I've just been on this struggle bus for the past few years. I start and then I stop and it's like I just don't have the motivation or there's conflicting interests and all these different things. And finally I was like, you know what? I know because I've done this routine before, being actually consistent in my fitness. I know that the only thing that I really have to work on is showing up put in on my workout clothes and doing something, even if it's just for 10 minutes. And you know what? That's all I need to focus on right now. It's the smallest step that I can take and it's the smallest step that's going to build  me up to take the next step. So like on Monday, I did 10 minutes of cardio. And I lifted a few days this week and then this morning I went for a run. Listen, it was a struggle. It was 15 minutes and I went, but what matters is taking the time and going, yay me, I showed up for myself. That's all that matters. Those small, you know, daily victories add up. They will add up as long as you acknowledge them as such, because it's too easy for me, for example, to go, I don't know.

Dr. Margie (20:10) not where I used to be, I literally won a bodybuilding competition. My first bodybuilding competition, I got first place in that, and it's too easy reflect on what my physique looked like, what nutrition looked like, what my discipline looked like. And to just compare myself even to my past self, right? And go.

Dr. Margie (20:33) Why are you celebrating just showing up and doing a 10-minute workout? Right? And that's again, part of the work is acknowledging yourself and being compassionate with yourself. Man, that's a hard one. It is one of the most challenging things that we get to do for ourselves is to be compassionate towards ourselves.

Kelly Berry (20:41) Okay, so since we went and revisited all that, I want to dive into purpose and how you, because you know, you talked about how you kind of always just had this ability to stay true or even just check in with yourself to make sure that what you were doing was in alignment with what you wanted to be doing. And I think at foundation, a lot of people don't even know what that is. You know, like they could check in with themselves, but they're still not sure. Is this really what I want? Because there are so many expectations and voices and all of that. So how do you work with people to uncover what their purpose is?

Dr. Margie (21:38) One of the things that we do, this is the hardest thing to do and it's a thing that we start with, which is getting out of our head. And that's a tough one. If you even stop to think about how the heck am I gonna get out of my own head? There are a lot of different tools to do that. Meditation, if you're not a meditating person, I get you, I am not either. There's a lot of mindfulness techniques. There are a lot of visualization exercises. And especially when you do it with someone, when somebody's guiding you through that process and just reminding you, don't judge what's showing up, just observe. Don't judge what, you know, don't try to make sense of what you're seeing right now. Just observe. And then at the end of a session, at the end of the exercise, you get to look at the data, basically like what showed up. And let's dig into that a little bit. Those are the little nuggets of truth that have been repressed for so long, have been suppressed for so just, we've learned to ignore it. But they're the little nuggets of truth we can start using to look at where you are now and is this where you were meant to be? All human beings experience this, we are all a product of our cultural conditioning. It doesn't matter what culture, the specifics of what we struggle with have to do with the cultures that we're from in relation to who we are as individual people. But we all, every single human being struggles with that, with the conditioning with the things that we learn, with the things that we internalize from other people about who we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to act, what we're allowed to say or not say, how we're allowed to say it or not say it. All of those rules and social norms piled on to us from the time that we're little. Think about kids, kids are generally very observant, very truthful. They just say what they see. And what do we, as a majority, the vast majority of people tell kids? Don't speak the truth. Don't say that out loud. I know you just made that observation and it's an honest observation, but, you know, and it comes with a lot of shame and angst, right? Of like, you're not allowed to speak the truth. You're not allowed to speak your observations. If there are things that come naturally to you and somebody else says, no, no, you're not supposed to do that, right? Your natural inclination is one thing, but what you learn and what you internalize is what everybody else is telling you. We learned that from the time that we were little. It's a lifetime of conditioning we still do it as adults. Somebody tells, you know, we have this idea and somebody, you know, says, well, that's not a good idea because this is, and then it just shuts you down.

Dr. Margie (24:36) and getting yourself back up to a place, to a confidence, to a trust in yourself. Because that's what confidence is. It is trusting in yourself. Getting to that place where you can trust yourself no matter what anybody else says. That's the work, friends. That can only happen if you know what your truth is. And I always tell people coaching is not about a coach giving you the answers. A good coach will help you, will guide you to find your own answers. They're not there to interject, to be yet another voice of what you should or shouldn't do with your life. What you should or shouldn't do about your relationship, what you should or shouldn't do about your careers or your parenting or any number of things. The job of a coach is to help you find the answers within, because that's the thing that we don't learn. That's the thing that most of us don't know how to do. And that's what I get to do. And it's such a fun experience for me as a coach, because once people start building that self-awareness, it's just a matter of strengthening the inner resolve. And that comes with time. But once you see the truth of yourself, it's like you said, we all want to know our purpose. Some people don't want that responsibility. Some people don't want that responsibility, especially because it comes with a little bit of fear of what if I had a purpose and it's different from what I've done or I haven't done anything in relation to that, but there's a nugget of truth that I've always known. And it just feels this huge sense of grief and regret of what you haven't done. And I will challenge anybody who's in that place reframe that to, I didn't know better until now. I didn't have the resources or the truth until now and now I have to do the work of forgiving myself for what I didn't know and also I get to choose what I do with this truth now. There is, it is never too late to start living in your purpose. Never, never. but it will come with some uncomfortable growth about the things that you have to let go of and how you have to design your life a little differently. But it's all for you. It's for your own benefit. And I will say that when we start living in that truth and living intentionally, it starts having these really, who's say bizarre ripple effects in the lives of others around you in ways that you cannot explain, but it does have an effect. I've seen that the past few years in my life, in my relationships, without me intervening in that dynamic, it's just because people see you being suddenly it it opens up something in them. It just triggers a little, a little like, whether it's curiosity or whether it's jealousy, because sometimes it is that. Like, why are you all free and happy and like serene and, and if they don't have that for themselves, but they want that even subconsciously, they, they will say stuff. But if you're working on yourself and working on your boundaries and working on protecting your peace and just be living intentionally for you, that stuff stops bothering you. And the more that, because human beings are human beings, the more that you can still continue in your own path, the more that that other person will start shifting in their own way without, again, without your intervention. you just by being you. Have you seen that too?

Kelly Berry (28:43) Yeah. I have, so as you were talking, one of my friends has, I don't know if she created this term or just has heard it, but she has called it like trickle down therapy or something like that. Like when you're in therapy or you're in coaching and you are working on yourselves, even if you do have conversations with your friends about the things that you're working on, it's, you know, other people are benefiting from the work that you're doing. So, as you were talking about it, I was thinking about some of those conversations that we've had about like trickle down therapy. But yeah, I can think of instances where people do see how you handle things and how it's different than how you used to handle things, maybe how you parent, how you are in other relationships in your life. And, you know, it can cause them to stop and think about or ask a lot of questions like, how is she doing that or why is she doing that or that looks better than the way that I'm doing it or, you know, insert whatever they might be thinking. But yeah, I have, I've seen that for sure.

Dr. Margie (29:48) Yeah, yeah. And the questions are different. The questions you ask yourself and the questions you ask of others also start being different. It starts changing. It starts being a little bit deeper. And I feel like, again, part of that inner worth that you're giving to yourself, it ends up translating into the kinds of questions that you ask of yourself and also the kinds of questions that you ask of others. It deepens your relationships with people who are open to deeper relationship. Not everybody is, and that's okay. Because there's some people that we just naturally were so inclined to be like, I know that I can do something with this person. And I know that like they're resistant to change or I see what the reservation is, you know, in their life or what the resistance is. And I just want to help them. It doesn't work that way, friends. If the person is not open to receiving that shift in their life, it does not matter how much you try. It does not matter how many different ways in which you say something or try to help. It doesn't matter. They are not open to receiving and there's nothing you can do about it. And I understand that it's very frustrating and it can be very sad. Especially when it's something for example like somebody's health deteriorating and you know that they can do something about it, but they're refusing to do something and you love them and you care about them and you want them to do better for themselves I get if they're not open to receiving that Nothing you can do and the only thing that you can do is just be loving and compassionate and that's that's your work in that dynamic. It's not changing them, it's not helping them in ways that they're not ready for. It is you showing up with more compassion.

Kelly Berry (31:39) Yeah, it is. It can be tough.

Dr. Margie (31:43) Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Berry (31:45) Especially because I think that once you... And I don't know how people listening interpret this type of conversation. If everything that you're working on is very deep and will change everything about you, or if you can just kind of like, you know, kind of look at this more as this is just something that you're always working on. You're always a work in progress. You're not trying to step into something like this so that you can turn your life upside down. You're trying, you know, you're stepping into something like this so that you can, you know, reduce anxiety, maybe feel less friction because you're operating more on your purpose or you just have, you're more present or more clear. You know, there's, I think a lot of benefits that people can get besides. You know, thinking about it as, well, I'm not sure I want to get started in that because I'm not sure I'm ready to, you know, turn my life upside down. You know, it doesn't have to look like that.

Dr. Margie (32:34) I agree and it's I think that's the fear right of like I'm gonna have to change my entire life now and that is a choice you can make if that feels like the right step for you and if it does, more power to you because that comes with its own fears, right? But honestly, even small changes come with their own fears, right? But there is no right or wrong way to live differently and more intentionally and more in purpose. You get to choose how you integrate that new truth, that knowing, into the rest of your life, into your day-to-day life. And it's a process. You know, I was thinking about people are talking to me, like about parenting or about, you know, and how I do things differently because of just I am a different person. And it's unsettling for other people, like, because your example earlier, I was like, you know, she maybe she's doing it better. It is not a judgment on you and how you do it. It's just that I'm choosing to do things differently because of my own reasons. And here are my reasons. This is what I'm trying to accomplish by doing things differently in this particular situation. And what happens is it leaves a person a little bit wondering, which can be an invitation to just be curious about, well, is this something that you want to change for you in your life? Is this a different way of being that you might want to adopt or try out? But it's also an opportunity for me to see how. It's kind of a little humbling of like I tend to be somebody who adapts very quickly if I if I learn something new or if I have an insight Then I could get to go. I can do better about that. So let me just do that. Right? The only reason why it's easier for me, It's faster for me is because I've been practicing for a longer time. It's really that's really all that is there's nothing you know, and this is not me downplaying myself or putting myself down. There's nothing special about me in that regard. We all have the same abilities. We all have the same internal resources that we can develop. Just because I am naturally inclined to be this way and have always been doesn't mean that that's not something that somebody else can grow in themselves. There is we have the same mechanics, right? We have different coping strategies and different things that have helped us but can be maladaptive, but that we can also change. Once we see that it's not helping us, we can shift that too. We just have to choose to see that for what it is and go, you know. Maybe the way that I've been up till now, or maybe the way that I've reacted to this situation or in general about these things is not the most helpful for me anymore. Maybe this has outgrown its purpose. And I get to then go, well, what do I want in its place? How do I get to do things differently, better? Let's say, how do I work on being less reactionary about X, Y, or Z thing or with X, Y, or Z person? Those are all things that you can do. It takes practice. It's a habit. It's a habit.

Kelly Berry (36:15) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, an analogy would be, you know, if you were a great piano player and I've never played the piano, you know, I'm not going to play it the same as you on day one. And it's because you've had years of practice and probably worked with a lot of teachers and, you know, there are a lot of things that have gone into why you were so good at it. And I think if we could you know, stop and just be, you know, to use your word from earlier, like more compassionate with ourselves or more patient or look at this type of work as the same type of effort. You have to put effort into it and you have to practice it and you have to be aware of it in order to do any of those things. But it's not something that you try one time and you're, you know, you're just like, well, I'm just not very good at, you know, controlling my emotions or I'm not very good at figuring out what I want to do or how I want to be. If you think about it as more a skill that you have to work on and have to develop. I think that can be helpful for some people who have just kind of, you know, they've tried and it hasn't been as easy as they hoped or they aren't as, you know, I'm air quotes again, like as good as they want to be or as good as whoever they're trying to model. But, you know, you have to think about it as you know, just like playing the piano or just like anything else that anybody has put years and years of work into. You're not just gonna get there on day one. And yeah, I think if more people looked at it like that and thought about it as, you know, a practice or as, you know, just a continuous work in progress, they'd be more willing to put in the work or more forgiving of themselves when, you know, maybe they don't respond the way that they wanted to in a certain situation, but yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Margie (38:07) Absolutely. Have you read the book, The Four Agreements?

Kelly Berry (38:12) I'm familiar with it, but I've not read it, yeah.

Dr. Margie (38:14) Okay. I always, I end up inadvertently making this homework for all of my clients. It's a short book. And what I love about The Four Agreements is it really talks about how we're again, it's part of the, you know, like cultural conditioning, but how we all unknowingly, unconsciously agree to social norms that make no sense for who we are. It's just a part of the dynamic of being part of a group, right? If you think of human survival, right? We survived in community. And so the idea of being different or considered deviant, and by deviant I mean like deviating from the norm, right? By deviating from the norm, by being a deviant person, by you know, to the point where you're ostracized or you're an outcast, That had very real survival implications in our human history. Those dynamics are still encoded in us and that's why for us it feels so hard to do something that feels that is not accepted in our cultural group, whether that's your family, whether that's your church, whether that's your school, whether that's your peer group, whatever the case may be, whether that's your work environment, right? It's because it's triggering that fear of being an outcast. And part of the work is going, wait a minute, I know that this is uncomfortable and I know that this is going to come with some friction and it's going to be a challenge because I'm dealing with literally tens of thousands of years worth of fear-based, you know, like a response in my body and in everybody else's body. And at the end of the day, this is not going to make you die.

Kelly Berry (39:59) Right, right.

Dr. Margie (40:13) This is really the way it comes out to I'm not going to die from this. I am not going to die. I am not going to die from this. It is just going to be something that I'm going to face that is going to be difficult. It's going to be a challenge in some way. And it matters. It matters enough for me to do it, to confront it, because otherwise I feel like I'm continuing to betray myself. And it really just boils down to that.

Dr. Margie (40:41) But in The Four Agreements, part of what the author, Don Miguel Ruiz, talks about is, you know, we all accepted these social norms. We accepted them not consciously, okay? We just learned to behave in ways that we were taught to be okay within our culture, within our group. So, with that, he talks about how in order for you, to really live a life that is right for you. There's part of the fear that comes in everybody else is like, well, so it's just about you, it's just the individual, what about the collective? No, no, no, no. When you work on yourself and you work on loving yourself and you work on being kind to yourself and compassionate, that ends up then transmitting to others because you start seeing others from that same empathetic vantage point that you're looking at yourself. And it makes you a kinder and better human being for everyone, not just for you. But the fear right again is like well, you know, that sounds all fine and good for them. But what about everybody else, right? So and one of the agreements Because again, there's four agreements and one of the agreements is always do your best. And the thing about always doing our best is it's easy to judge what we do or we've done in the past and be like I can't believe I did that and they have comes with a lot of guilt and shame. But at that moment in your life, even though it doesn't feel like your best now, it was your best then. As long as you can live every day, behave and act and think in ways where you can the next day say, was that my best? And you can say yes, that's what matters. Always doing our best. I have two little ones. I always do my best, but sometimes I suck at it. Sometimes I just, I'm a human being. Sometimes I get upset. Okay. And I'll yell and then I'll think, gosh, that wasn't my best. Can I be better tomorrow? In fact, I don't have to wait till tomorrow. How can I fix it? Can I be better right now in this moment that I'm thinking about this? And a way that has worked for me to be better is just to go be honest with my kids and say, I'm sorry that I yelled, I was upset and this is what happened, this is what I was feeling, this is why I'm upset, and it's still not okay for me to yell at you. I have to continue working on anger. I have to continue working on my responses. I have to continue working on my self-management. It's not an excuse. You still have to do the work, right? But doing the work, to me in that sense, most of us grew up with people yelling at us or worse, beating us. And we learned to accept that as normal. As, well, that's just how they did it. And that's how they raised me. And I turned out just fine. There are ways in which you normalize it and you rationalize it because that's the only way that you know how to cope with it. But at the end of the day, no, it wasn't okay. It wasn't okay for you to be a little kid and to get abused. No, it wasn't okay. And that's a hard one. And that's something that I have a lot of experience with in my own life. I unfortunately have a lot of adverse childhood experiences. And I can look at that and go, you know, in fact, even as a little kid, I could see it and I go, I am a good kid. I go to school. I listen. I follow directions. I do what I'm supposed to do. And I just had this realization, you know, at 10 years old, I'm like, I don't deserve this. I had my youngest, my younger brother, the one that followed me, was seven years younger. He was three years old at the time, also getting beaten, getting abused, getting... I could look at that at that age and go, he doesn't deserve this. This is not okay. And what I remember at that time, Kelly, is going, we don't deserve this. This has nothing to do with us. This has nothing to do with me being a bad kid or being unlovable, even though that's how they made me feel.

Dr. Margie (45:09) It had nothing to do with my brother being unlovable or bad or anything. That's just how they made him feel. There was a sense of commitment for me of like, I get to do better. I get to do better than these people. I get to do better for kids. No child deserves to be abused. Just period, there's no ifs or buts about it, none. And so to me in my parenting, I take that very seriously and I take it very hard when I feel like I failed. Because I'm like, I am not the monster that I was, you know, the examples that I was exposed to by like ever, I would just never be that. But even with small outbursts, to me it feels like there's like this monster coming out of me, right? That's just how it feels in my body and it feels horrible  to feel like I'm not in control, but I'm a human being. I'm always working on stuff. I'm a human being with stressors, just like everybody else. And I get to do the work continuously to be better, to improve my skills to be a better parent, to be more communicative with my kids, it's an invitation. It really is. You can either continue choosing to see it as I'm a failure and I'm never gonna be better and this is hard work, or you can see it as an invitation to grow and know that it's going to take time for you to heal, for you to learn, for you to find better ways to work through whatever you're working through. But at the end of the day, it all matters. It matters for you to do that work. And it's okay if you fail. You will. You will absolutely not do your best some days, but then you'll do better the next day. And that's what matters.

Kelly Berry (46:56) Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's a great place for us to end on. I think that, you know, it's, to me, it's inspiring to hear you talk about even, you know, going back to all that you've done, even all of your education, that for you, this is still a daily work in progress, that, you know, you never really arrive and, you know, having all of these things under control and knowing exactly who you are and exactly how you want to show up every day is, you know, part of the human experience to live and always strive to do better, be better, know better. And I really appreciate your inspiring take on it and appreciate you sharing that with us.

Dr. Margie (47:56) Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the time. Thank you for your presence. I'm glad that I get to contribute a little bit to like, you know, what my own life intended.

Kelly Berry (48:06) Yeah, definitely. I will link to the book that you mentioned in the show notes and I will link to your profiles. And if anybody has any questions or wants to talk to Dr. Margie further, please I invite you to reach out. I've had a couple of conversations with her and she's as amazing as she just was on this podcast and just a wealth of information, compassion and she's easy to talk to, easy to listen to. So thank you so much, Margie. Yeah, thank you. We will talk to you later.

Dr. Margie (48:40)

Thank you, Kelly, I really appreciate you.